Ultra-running: Dean Karnazes Transcript
March 4, 2005

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«Tim Bourquin»: “Welcome back to www.EnduranceRadio.com.  Thanks for joining us for another interview today.  We’re going to be revisiting one of our athletes that we spoke to right at the beginning when we launched www.EnduranceRadio.com, Dean Karnazes is an ultra-running athlete and has been featured in a lot of magazines and has been interviewed quite a few times.  We’re going to be talking to Dean about what he’s been doing in the past few months and also maybe get some good ideas for some training tips for ultra-endurance athletes.

The Race of the Day today is the Rite Aid Cleveland Marathon and 10K.  It’s on May 22nd, 2005.  If you want to find out more about the Cleveland Marathon you can click on the Race of the Day link right below the link to this audio.

So we’re going to be right back to speak with Dean Karnazes in about 30 seconds.

“Dehydration can diminish your energy and impair your performance.  Scientists at the Gatorade Sports Science Institute have been studying athletes for nearly 20 years and understand what endurance athletes need to stay hydrated.  Gatorade Endurance Hydration Formula contains a five electrolyte blend consisting of sodium, chloride, potassium, calcium and magnesium, formulated to replace the fluids and electrolytes you lose during longer more intense workouts and races.  Find out more about Gatorade Endurance Hydration at www.gatorade.com today.  Is it in you?”

«Tim Bourquin»: “Dean thanks again for joining us.  I appreciate you taking the time to talk to us again.”

«Dean Karnazes»: “I’m glad to be here Tim.”

«Tim Bourquin»: “Well you’ve got a book tour coming up and a new book, so talk a little bit about that to start us off.”

«Dean Karnazes»: “Well I wrote a book and its being published by Penguin Books, it’ll be released on March 17th, the title is ‘Ultra-Marathon Man, Confessions of an All Night Runner’ and its gotten some really good reviews, which had made me very happy because I’m a runner not a writer, but some of the more academic reviews, like Publishers Weekly and Kirkus Review actually really enjoyed the book, and these are not runners so I think the story translates well to both athletes and non-athletes.”

«Tim Bourquin»: “Do you talk about your background in the sport itself and do you give tips for other people that want to get into the ultra-running as well?” 

«Dean Karnazes»: “Sure.  Basically I started running ultras about 11 years ago, and an ultra is defined as anything longer than a marathon.  I graduated from the marathon to a 30 mile race and then to a 50 miler and then did a 100 miler and then a 135 miler and then a 200 miler, and I recently ran 262 miles non-stop and that the farthest I’ve gone.  I guess my one bit advice I’d give to anyone is just to mentally prepare.  The battle beyond a marathon is as much a mental one as a physical one.”

«Tim Bourquin»: “Dean, for a lot of people just running the 26.2 miles in a marathon is almost inconceivable, it’s a huge challenge for them and so when they finally do overcome that they feel like they’ve accomplished a lot, but what is it about getting those longer and longer distances for you that’s made you just keep going further and further?”

«Dean Karnazes»: “You know, I guess I’ve kind of been finding my sweet spot if you will.  I rang 10K’s when I was younger and I became very slow, graduated to the marathon distance and it was pretty good there originally, but I got slower and slower, and found that my endurance increased as I got older.  My speed certainly deceased but my endurance increased and so I just started bumping up the miles trying to figure if I went further I could probably hold the same sort of marathon pace just for two marathons, and then found that even for 100 miles I can keep my heart rate up around 160, 150 to 160, and hold that for 100 miles.”

«Tim Bourquin»: “And how are you feeling?  Are you feeling ten times worse after you’ve done ten times the marathon, or do you get to a point where it’s just something that is about the same the whole way through?”

«Dean Karnazes»: “During the actual event, I would say you hit the wall repeatedly.  This 262 mile I did, which is the equivalent of ten marathons non-stop, I would say I hit the wall probably a dozen times, so you’re experiencing some real deep blows, and then on the flip side, if you can push through the low you really do feel a very pronounced high and you try and make that last as long as you can.”

«Tim Bourquin»: “And how long does that typically last?”

«Dean Karnazes»: “You know it really depends on the conditions.  I’ve found the hotter it is, typically the shorter the duration.  If you’re really messing around with your electrolytes, if you’re sweating a lot, those highs might only be fleeting, they might be three or four minutes, but if you’re managing your electrolytes, if things are going well it can last an hour or two hours.”

«Tim Bourquin»: “Describe exactly what that feels like, because maybe for people that have not experienced that in the past; if you can, describe how it feels.”

«Dean Karnazes»: “From a physical standpoint it feels somewhat like you’re floating.  You don’t feel the pain sensation of every stride; the pain kind of gets numb to a point where you just float along.  From a psychological standpoint, the world is filled with possibilities, I mean you feel somewhat invincible, like you can do anything and then, like I said, a couple of minutes later everything might just suck and you can’t even take a step.”

«Tim Bourquin»: “Physiologically, what do you think is causing that?  Have you looked into the science behind what’s making that happen?”

«Dean Karnazes»: “I’ve read a lot about it and the theories that it’s largely due to brain chemistry and endorphins, you body’s way of protecting itself from pain, but it’s a not a topic that’s been deeply studied.  Just right now I starting to notice more and more of a scientific interest in ultras, but prior to this year it was pretty much uncharted territory.”

«Tim Bourquin»: “What do you see as your goals this coming year?  Do you plan to run even further than 262 miles at one time?”

«Dean Karnazes»: “Well I’d like to; this sounds crazy and I hate to go on record saying this, but I really think I can do 300 miles non-stop.  The course I did the 262 on was a very hilly course here in the Bay area and it actually rained for about 20 hours of the 75 hours I ran, so I think with better conditions and a flatter course, that was somewhat of a 300 mile effort if you will.  I think I can do 300, that’s two nights, it’s actually three nights without sleep and that becomes one of the factors, just the sleep deprivation.”

«Tim Bourquin»: “Right, well I want to ask you how you prepare for sleep deprivation and how you prepare for these longs runs in general, but we need to take a quick break.  We’ll be right back to speak with ultra-runner Dean Karnazes.”

“Dehydration can diminish your energy and impair your performance.  Scientists at the Gatorade Sports Science Institute have been studying athletes for nearly 20 years and understand what endurance athletes need to stay hydrated.  Gatorade Endurance Hydration Formula contains a five electrolyte blend consisting of sodium, chloride, potassium, calcium and magnesium, formulated to replace the fluids and electrolytes you lose during longer more intense workouts and races.  Find out more about Gatorade Endurance Hydration at www.gatorade.com today.  Is it in you?”

«Tim Bourquin»: “Dean setting the sleep deprivation aside for just a moment, we’ll definitely get to that, but endurance wise, are you at a point right now where you’re running so long that you’re just maintaining that level of endurance or are you still working every season to increase your endurance level?”

«Dean Karnazes»: “I’m working on other elements, and that is total body fitness if you will, really conditioning every ounce of muscle I have to get me through these long distances, and that includes a lot of cross-training so I’m building up a pretty dense muscle mass, a lot more than the typical runner would like to carry.”

«Tim Bourquin»: “Training wise, in terms of the distance you’re running before these long events; obviously you’re not running 262 miles to prepare for 262 miles, but what you are running in terms of volume?”

«Dean Karnazes»: “I would say I’m running between 80 and 120 miles per week, but the way I’m doing that I think differs than an elite marathoner.  I’m not just running 20 miles every day, I’m really mixing things up so I might run 10 miles one day, five miles the next, and then I might run all night and run 50 or 60 miles.  I do that quite often, I run up to Napa Valley to a little spa up there that my family like to meet me at, but they drive up from the city, from San Francisco, the next morning.  I just run there.”

«Tim Bourquin»: “Talk about the sleep deprivation part of it.  Are you able to bank sleep, is that physically possible?”

«Dean Karnazes»: “You know that’s a funny one.  I can push through two nights now without sleep.  I’ve done that a number of times and I can get through two nights without a problem.  The third night gets a little tricky, and I’ve actually found myself falling asleep while I run, and its amazing that you continue running when you fall asleep, so I’ve covered a distance while I’ve been asleep, and you wake-up rejuvenated, and it might only be a 30 or 40 second nap, if you will, but you pop out of it and you feel refreshed.”

«Tim Bourquin»: “That’s amazing.  Do you ever feel like, because of the lack of sleep, you have hallucinations or any other weird effects?”

«Dean Karnazes»: “Oh yes, theres all kinds of weird effects.  I’ve hallucinated; one time, when I was running across Dead Valley, I thought I saw a miner I the road with a gold pan begging for water.  It was the middle of the night and only when I poured some water out of my water bottle and heard it sizzling on the asphalt did I realize it was just a hallucination.”

«Tim Bourquin»: “What kind of support do you have when you’re doing these things?  Obviously you’ve got to have water, you’re not carrying that with you are you?”

«Dean Karnazes»: “You know running across Death Valley you have pretty good crew support.  When I do a lot of my long training runs in northern California, I just carry a cell phone and a credit card and I’ll order pizza, if you will, on the fly.  I’ve done that a number of times, I’ve called Round Table Pizza and tell them where I’m going to be and they’ll deliver a pizza.”

«Tim Bourquin»: “You’re serious!”

«Dean Karnazes»: “Yeah, yeah.

«Tim Bourquin»: “That’s got to be something to see.  What inspired you to write this book Dean?  You have some tremendous success and you’ve got a lot of coverage from these magazines; what prompted you to tell your story?”

«Dean Karnazes»: “You know I was asked to do a lot of presentations at various running clubs and business groups and so forth, and at the end of these presentations, inevitability, a handful of people would come up to me and say, ‘Man your story’s amazing, you ought to write a book,’ and so I did one day, and that how the book came about.  The press has frankly blown me away.  For a runner I’d never dreamed I’d ever be where I’m at right now.  I opened up Time Magazine this morning and found theres a one page spread on me in Time Magazine; I never thought a runner would ever make Time Magazine, let alone me, so it’s been quite remarkable.”

«Tim Bourquin»: “Why do you think that ultra-running and these longer distances have become more popular in the last few years?”

«Dean Karnazes»: “I think people are interested in the frontiers of human endurance.  I think that people are really curious to see how far the body can be pushed, and I am as well.  I’ve learned so much over the last couple of years as far as the body’s ability to recover and to overcome adversity and I think that’s a growing interest for a number of people.”

«Tim Bourquin»: “Is it still as much of a high when you finish one of these races as it was when you first started doing them?”

«Dean Karnazes»: “Its better now, it just gets better and better.  That’s the thing I love about it.”

«Tim Bourquin»: “What races will you be entering in?  You do your own obviously, because it’s probably not a race that has 300 miles; well first of all will you be doing that this year, are you going to give that a shot?”

«Dean Karnazes»: “I’m going to give it a shot this fall and it’ll be part of a 200 mile race, actually a 200 mile, 12 person relay race that I’ve run solo the past eight years in a row, so I’ll tack on 100 miles to run to the start of this 200 mile run and then I’ll just run the relay solo, hopefully run the relay solo, and that’ll be 300.  Other than that, I’m going to be competing in the Western States 100 mile endurance run for hopefully my tenth silver buckle, which is for a sub-24 hour finish.  I’ve done it nine times, and that’s in June.  I’m also going to go back to Badwater, Death Valley, to defend my title.  I won the Badwater Ultramarathon last year, so I’m going to go back out there and defend my title, and I’ll probably do a couple of other organized races and then some fun runs as well.”

«Tim Bourquin»: “It seems what’s really in it for you is to kind of push yourself and race against yourself if you will.  Are you pretty competitive when it comes to these ultra-running races that you do participate in?”

«Dean Karnazes»: “You know it’s a good question.  People say, ‘Boy, you know, you won the Badwater, that must have been a tremendous high,’ and my comeback is, ‘Well I didn’t really win, I survived the fastest.’  I mean it’s really a survival thing and I try not to loose scope of that.  So many of the people in these races they just want to make it to the finish line, I mean that is a win for them if they make it, if they complete the event, so I try not to get too caught up in the competition and just keep it in prospective that what we’re doing is crazy first of all, and 90% of the field is there to just try and complete the race.  Competition to me is shorter races, 100K races and below, but once you move up to the 100 mile mark, its more just survival than competition.”

«Tim Bourquin»: “Is there a world record for longest endurance run?”

«Dean Karnazes»: “You know theres not.  I mean we did a lot of research on that.  Runner’s World did some research, Time Magazine did some research; theres some pretty amazing miles that have been documented running around a track, for timed track runs, but theres no documentation as to whether these people stopped or not.  A lot of these races were what they call ‘Come as you go’ so you just went and you slept when you needed to.  As far as the longest single push, people think that perhaps that 75 hour run I did was the longest anyone has ever continuously run, but the records are sketchy.  Theres no documentation of these things.”

«Tim Bourquin»: “I think we need to call up Guinness and make sure that they get you in there.

Well Dean you have a book tour coming up as well, so I guess people are going to be able to get some signed copies of your book if they show up at one of your locations?”

«Dean Karnazes»: “Yeah, and probably the easiest way for them to do that is to go onto my website, which www.ultramarathonman.com and the cities and stores I’ll be at are listed there.  It started as an eight city tour and now it’s a 21 city tour and growing everyday, so I’m going to be criss-crossing the country a couple of times starting in March.”

«Tim Bourquin»: “Excellent, well we’ll link directly to that site right near the link to this audio.

Dean, thanks very much again for your time.  It’s been great talking to you.” 

«Dean Karnazes»: “It’s always a pleasure Tim.  Thanks for having me.”