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Ultra Question

eblum06's picture
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started by eblum06 on April 15, 2008

I've enjoyed reading the multiple ultramarathon race reports this past week. Just wondering to any ultra runners, did you train for the ultras while still training for tri's? Or was tri training put on hold inorder to kick up the running miles?

I'd love to try an ultra (won't be for awhile) and was wondering if you'd have to give up the biking and swimming for awhile to effectively train for one.

Thanks

TriSooner's picture
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TriSooner posted 25 weeks ago.

I trained for and finished one Ultra (50k road race) on February 23rd '08 as part of my base training miles for Ironman Germany on July 6 '08 (19 weeks apart). In reviewing my training logs for the ultra, about 2/3 of my training hours consisted of outdoor running, with light swimming and indoor spin classes during Dec., Jan, and Feb just to keep the rust off. Since then I have cut back on the running, amped up the swimming and biking, and I still feel like I have good running legs.

I may have done better at the Ultra if I had cut-out the spinning/swimming completely and focussed solely on the run. But since IM Germany is my priority for the entire year, I sacrificed quality at the Ultra, used it just as motivation to train over the winter, and kept swimming and cycling a bit (~2000m swim; ~40miles bike per week) just to keep from losing them completely. At that point, I was in much better run shape than tri shape, so any tri at the time would have been half-assed.

This strategy has worked so far. Other than a less-than-thrilling 6hr finish over 50k of cement, I was able to start the tri season (March) with a solid 400 running miles, and since I kept spinning and swimming, I didn't have to start the swim and bike from scratch. I think Ultras and Tri's can co-exist peacefully. Ultras are (for the most part) cold/cooler month events; Tris are warmer month events. So IMHO, you can easily do Ultras in winter; tri's in summer, but get your efforts worth from the Ultra training and transition to a full IM. If I do an Ultra again, 1) it won't be on cement, and 2) I'll train only for the Ultra.

beads1985's picture
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beads1985 posted 25 weeks ago.

I ran, biked and swam throughout the year. I did a couple of marathons, several shorter distance triathlons, which led up to an IM (Chesapeakeman)in late September,
and then the JFK 50 in mid November.
When I wrapped up the IM, I rested and then dropped the biking and swimming for the most part and just continued running for the 50 miler.

I think the cross training helps maintain my fitness, and things worked out fine.

Nothing to it, but to do it

gfd's picture
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gfd posted 25 weeks ago.

How many really long runs (over marathon distance) did you guys do to prepare?

beads1985's picture
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beads1985 posted 25 weeks ago.

I did a couple of marathons, and half marathons and several back to back long runs over a weekend. Several big mile weeks with heavy back to back to back to back days.

Generally I was winging it and just tried to run alot.

I will run alot more this year to prepare.

Nothing to it, but to do it

burnman's picture
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burnman posted 25 weeks ago.

TriSooner wrote:
If I do an Ultra again, 1) it won't be on cement, and 2) I'll train only for the Ultra.

Somewhat of a tangent, but I believe in last month's Runner's world, they had a fact or fiction blurb on running surfaces. The claim that hard surfaces cause injury was deemed to be fiction. That seems to be a very black and white answer for such a grey topic. The underlying point is that bad form causes injury ... no kidding. However, proper form comes from learned, repeatable mechanics. Running shoes are designed for support and cushioning over a range of surfaces, the average being something more forgiving than concrete. Therefore, dampening is compromised on concrete, forcing you to alter your stride mechanics. If you develop your stride on concrete and train on concrete, then it's very likely that racing on concrete will have no ill effect. However, if you run on a variety of surfaces, it's very practical to assume that the hard concrete will have adverse effects on your form, thus promoting injury. What would happen to a concrete veteran that decides to go running on the beach? Different foot response, different mechanics, leading to different form. I wouldn't expect a career-ending injury, but probably some fatigue and soreness - indicating that surface response impact the body's response. Just speculation on my part.

Anton's picture
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Anton posted 25 weeks ago.

Ultras are a whole different ball game, but I think that training at least in something other than running, makes you a better UR. I am a low mileage UR. (Low is relative) I get through 50 milers and 100ks on 40 to 60 miles a week running, but I also put in 100 or more on the bike. Lifting is important as over long distances the upper body gets quite tired.
I know URs that run 75 to 100 mile or more weeks and they finish in the same time as folks who run 50 and bike 100 or more.
Don't laugh, but long walks are a big help as you often walk in a ultra, even the leaders will, and being able to walk effeciently and fast is a big help...
To answer Garen, There is a rule of thumb. For 50k, long run should be marathon distance. For 50 miles...50k long run is vital and for above that...50 milers as training runs. It really depends on the individual though...I've run 50 milers on nothing over a marathon, but being quite religious about back to back runs (26 Saturday, 10 Sunday)
For this last event where I had to stop at 52...I had planned to go 100...training included 50k runs followed immediately a 20 mile walk. Did that twice. Last one three weeks out. Other weekends ran, 20 to 26 and biked long the next day and somewhat hard. Milage during the week was low and I took a day off before and after the long runs, to recover. One weekend I was sick of it all and blew it off! While my feet were trashed...even after 52 in 11 hours, I am not sore or tired and feel if I had taken better care of my feet I'd have finished well. Lesson learned.
I posted a link to the Annapolis Striders site which had posted a great 50 mile training program...but it's been taken down after years of being there.
If I get some time this weekend I'll post it on the UR thread.
Another great site: www.ultrunr.com

"What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?" - Vincent Van Gogh
My Blog: http://agingsuperhero.blogspot.com

kylie's picture
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kylie posted 25 weeks ago.

Anton wrote:
For this last event where I had to stop at 52...I had planned to go 100...training included 50k runs followed immediately a 20 mile walk.

Did you mean 20 miles, or 20 minutes? 20 mile walk just seems like it would take too long for me!

Here is another good 50miler training plan (from what I've heard -- I've "only" made it to a 50k so far): http://www.trailrunevents.com/ul/schedule-50m.htm

eblum06's picture
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eblum06 posted 25 weeks ago.

Thanks for all the help and links.

tsilcyc's picture
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tsilcyc posted 25 weeks ago.

I've had the itch and I think it needs to be scratched. I've been thinking long and hard about a 50 miler and it just seems like the perfect way to finish out the season.

Is there a site that lists the events?

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Anton's picture
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Anton posted 25 weeks ago.

www.ultrarunning.com is a good source. Many Local ultra clubs exist...

And no Kylie,...20 miles...you wouldn't do that for a 50k or 50 miler, but I was training myself to be on my feet for 15 hours or more. Only recommended for fringe personalities!

"What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?" - Vincent Van Gogh
My Blog: http://agingsuperhero.blogspot.com

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kylie posted 25 weeks ago.

Ahhh ok... I missed that it was in the part specifically for a 100 miler! I bet you got to see quite a lot of places that way :)

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Ultrarunner posted 25 weeks ago.

I had no idea we had so many ultra-runners here! Great advice from everyone. I still think of myself as an UR before a triathlete, just because I've done a lot more of them. I like to keep up the swimming and the biking but I usually use it as cross training and recovery time. I have also been a long time believer in the fact that if you can climb hills on a bike, you can climb hills even better as a runner. I have to admit, once I am 6-8 months out from an IM, I put all my focus on the IM. No more runs over 15-20 miles. I also think the 50+ milers are more difficult than the IM.

kevinb421's picture
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kevinb421 posted 25 weeks ago.

I just did my first 50k when I had planned on doing a 50 miler, and I learned A LOT about what an ultra takes.
My training consisted of my usual tri training, but I dropped one day on the bike for an extra running day.
My weekend run just got a little longer and slower when training for the ultra.
Some interesting things that I noticed while doing the race.
My endurance never suffered I never felt over winded - it was actually my joints that got to me. One thing I wish I would have done more for sure is what Anton said, spend more time in the weight room, it makes all the difference in the world.

Good Luck!

"If your not going to win, make the fellow in front of you break a record."

http://www.peak.com/kevinb421/blog/

Anton's picture
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Anton posted 25 weeks ago.

kylie wrote:
Ahhh ok... I missed that it was in the part specifically for a 100 miler! I bet you got to see quite a lot of places that way :)

Nope...just do it on a four mile loop so I have an aid station at the car and am able to train the mind to handle the boredom....
and +1 to ultrarunner how thinks 50 milers are harder than IM's. Did my first 50 13 years ago and when I got to my first IM 5 years ago, didn't think it was that hard...and wasn't nearly as beat up as when I set my 50 mile PR.

"What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?" - Vincent Van Gogh
My Blog: http://agingsuperhero.blogspot.com

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kevinb421 posted 25 weeks ago.

Quote:
and +1 to ultrarunner how thinks 50 milers are harder than IM's.
Quote:

so here is the question, compare a 50k to an ironman, my first Ironman is in Sept and I'm nervous regardless of how people have told me ultras are tougher - there is still that fear that the Ironman is well the ironman

"If your not going to win, make the fellow in front of you break a record."

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kylie's picture
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kylie posted 25 weeks ago.

I found my 50k to be easier physically than my hard Ironman races. I also found I had less pressure on myself for that than an IM, which made it just have a different feeling mentally.

Ultrarunner's picture
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Ultrarunner posted 25 weeks ago.

Depends a lot on the race I think. Typically I think a 50k is easier than an IM, but the last 50k I did had 18,000 ft of elevation change and 100+ degree heat index. To me, that was harder than any IM I have ever done. I was only half done with the 50k and I could barely stand up, my urine looked orange, and for the first time ever I wondered how I was going to finish. I did, but it was a death march the last 5 miles. The picture to the left is from that race. I get weak just thinking about it.